[silence] cage criticism
Cory P. Mathews
cmathews@umail.ucsb.edu
Tue Nov 7 13:32:44 EST 2006
Thanks, Greg, for the link to Cardew's article. I will read it with
great interest. And when I was talking about "criticism," I meant
informed, intelligent, and dare I say, scholarly criticism from people
who know and respect Cage's work and ideas. Of course Cage has been
lambasted with tons of negative criticism over the years from every
sector. I was hoping for more thoughtful criticism that seeks to be
critical, not necessarily dismissive or harsh.
And, I'm not too sure exactly what Brophy's beef is either. He could
have been much more clear. As someone already pointed out, his
writing style is a bit dense. I wasn't saying that his type of
criticism is the kind we need. Just more critical thinking about Cage
in general. Based on the other thoughtful responses (thanks everyone),
I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in this.
Finally, why "should" we all vote? Didn't Cage himself abstain from
voting? :-)
Cory
--
cory mathews
PhD candidate, musicology
university of california, santa barbara
cmathews@umail.ucsb.edu
http://ucsbmusicgrads.net
Music gives us alternative imaginative geographies for the places we inhabit.
Simon Critchley
greg davis <gregorytylerdavis@gmail.com> wrote:
> let us not forget Cardew's criticism of Cage in his 'Stockhausen
> serves Imperialism'.
> chapter 'John Cage; Ghost or Monster?'.
>
> you can download a PDF of the whole book at the wonderful Ubuweb site.
> http://www.ubu.com/historical/cardew/index.html
>
> personally, i could never really find too many ways to criticize
> cage. i guess thats why i really like his music and ideas. and i
> think there is plenty of criticism of cage out there. a lot of it is
> baseless or uninformed, but cage always seemed like an easy target
> for people because he was so unique and controversial at times.
>
> i read brophy's essay in the wire and didnt really understand or
> connect with his criticism of cage.
> his main criticism is that cage's music/ideas were 'a-cultural'.
> mainly because cage was stuck in an academic concert hall new music
> festival world and not looking to the outside world from that.
> particularly in the 80's and 90's, cage lost contact with the pulse
> of current culture somehow. brophy also does not take to cage's zen
> ideas and easternised philosopy. or his 'haiku-tinged wispy love of
> life aphorisms.....' as he puts it. this is the part of cage that i
> connect with the most. cage's zen ideas are deep rooted and i think
> are the basis for everything he did (at least post-1950 or so) so to
> not understand this aspect of cage, i think its hard to judge or
> criticize him.
>
> well anyways, im off to vote.
> you should vote too.
>
> -greg
>
>
>
> --
> out now! : 'ku' cd (with jeph jerman) on room40
> out now! : split 7" with of (loren chasse) on ache records
> out now! : '6x20' 2cdr (with jeph jerman & albert casais) on winds
> measure recordings
> out now! : 'a raga for peter walker' compilation cd on tompkins
> square records
> http://www.autumnrecords.net
> aim / ichat : gregasterisk
> blog : http://gregorytdavis.blogspot.com
>
>
> On Nov 7, 2006, at 12:09 PM, silence-request@list.mail.virginia.edu
> wrote:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Brophy & Cage (Cory P. Mathews)
>> 2. Cage & Max Neuhaus (Cory P. Mathews)
>> 3. Re: Brophy & Cage (Ian Pace)
>> 4. Re: Brophy & Cage (Zac Bond)
>> 5. Re: Brophy & Cage (Joseph Zitt)
>> 6. Re: Brophy & Cage (Christopher L Shultis)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 19:57:20 -0800
>> From: "Cory P. Mathews" <cmathews@umail.ucsb.edu>
>> Subject: [silence] Brophy & Cage
>> To: silence@list.mail.virginia.edu
>> Message-ID: <20061105195720.s16howtogw0o44og@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
>> format="flowed"
>>
>> Hello Silencers,
>>
>> Has anyone seen Philip Brophy's little essay on page 106 of the
>> November 2006 issue of The Wire (#273)? I'm interested in the group's
>> reactions.
>>
>> More importantly, though, I wonder if this may signal the end of
>> defending Cage. Or, might this essay be a call for more critical
>> reactions to Cage and his musical/philosophic/aesthetic legacy? (Of
>> course, this is not the first critique of Cage--I'm thinking of
>> Douglas Kahn's Noise, Water, Meat.) Could it be that the anxiety of
>> Cage's influence (in Bloomian terms) is hindering the aesthetic shift
>> that will usher in the next big thing in music's history? At this
>> historical juncture, might it become necessary for both composers and
>> scholars to challenge (read: "think more critically about") Cage in
>> order to incite change? (Not that change is desired, better, or even
>> "necessary.") I have to admit, that it was refreshing to read
>> Brophy's viewpoint, just because so much writing and scholarship about
>> Cage falls under the "apologist" category in my mind. Not, to start a
>> big nasty debate here, but I'd like to know if anyone has any
>> reactions on this subject.
>>
>> Cory
>>
>> ps. Props to the 4 presenters (Hicks, Bernstein, Grimshaw, and
>> Haskins) at the first ever all-Cage session at the American
>> Musicological Society conference last Friday. Great stuff guys!
>>
>> --
>> cory mathews
>> PhD candidate, musicology
>> university of california, santa barbara
>> cmathews@umail.ucsb.edu
>> http://ucsbmusicgrads.net
>>
>> Music gives us alternative imaginative geographies for the places
>> we inhabit.
>> Simon Critchley
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2006 20:06:20 -0800
>> From: "Cory P. Mathews" <cmathews@umail.ucsb.edu>
>> Subject: [silence] Cage & Max Neuhaus
>> To: silence@list.mail.virginia.edu
>> Message-ID: <20061105200620.hitvldeuskwcogsc@webaccess.umail.ucsb.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
>> format="flowed"
>>
>> Hello (again) Silencers,
>>
>> I'm in the research phase of a dissertation about
>> performer-turned-composer-turned-artist Max Neuhaus. If any of you
>> have run into statements made by Cage about Neuhaus in the unpublished
>> material (interviews, letters, etc.), will you please let me know. It
>> seems like there should be more out there than I have been able to
>> locate. In the meantime, I'll keep digging around :-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Cory
>>
>> --
>> cory mathews
>> PhD candidate, musicology
>> university of california, santa barbara
>> cmathews@umail.ucsb.edu
>> http://ucsbmusicgrads.net
>>
>> Music gives us alternative imaginative geographies for the places
>> we inhabit.
>> Simon Critchley
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 10:15:03 -0000
>> From: "Ian Pace" <ian@ianpace.com>
>> Subject: Re: [silence] Brophy & Cage
>> To: <silence@list.mail.virginia.edu>
>> Message-ID: <002d01c7018c$6d71c410$4ee60352@IANPC>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> I haven't seen Brophy's essay yet - which aspects of Cage's work in
>> particular is he advocating a more critical attitude towards? One
>> of the
>> collections of essays about Cage (can't remember off hand which
>> one) says
>> something in the introduction about how, when an artist is
>> controversial,
>> they tend to attract a group of jealously protective admirers
>> around them,
>> who feel the need to defend them at all costs. I've seen quite
>> clearly how
>> that has happened with numerous more recent composers. Cage is now
>> probably
>> the most recorded of all composers who established their reputation
>> in the
>> post-1945 years, it's certainly time for critique of his work that
>> isn't
>> simply dismissive. I feel Cage's self-mythologising in particular
>> needs
>> looking at. There is FAR too much adoring writing about Cage that
>> takes all
>> his own perspectives on most matters at face value.
>>
>> Apologies for self-promotion here, but if anyone's interested, my own
>> article '"The Best Form of Government....": Cage's laissez-faire
>> anarchism
>> and capitalism', taking an extremely critical view of Cage's
>> politics, will
>> be in the new issue of Open Space magazine (Fall 2006), which will
>> be out in
>> the next few weeks.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Cory P. Mathews" <cmathews@umail.ucsb.edu>
>> To: <silence@list.mail.virginia.edu>
>> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 3:57 AM
>> Subject: [silence] Brophy & Cage
>>
>>
>>> Hello Silencers,
>>>
>>> Has anyone seen Philip Brophy's little essay on page 106 of the
>>> November 2006 issue of The Wire (#273)? I'm interested in the
>>> group's
>>> reactions.
>>>
>>> More importantly, though, I wonder if this may signal the end of
>>> defending Cage. Or, might this essay be a call for more critical
>>> reactions to Cage and his musical/philosophic/aesthetic legacy? (Of
>>> course, this is not the first critique of Cage--I'm thinking of
>>> Douglas Kahn's Noise, Water, Meat.) Could it be that the anxiety of
>>> Cage's influence (in Bloomian terms) is hindering the aesthetic shift
>>> that will usher in the next big thing in music's history? At this
>>> historical juncture, might it become necessary for both composers and
>>> scholars to challenge (read: "think more critically about") Cage in
>>> order to incite change? (Not that change is desired, better, or even
>>> "necessary.") I have to admit, that it was refreshing to read
>>> Brophy's viewpoint, just because so much writing and scholarship
>>> about
>>> Cage falls under the "apologist" category in my mind. Not, to start a
>>> big nasty debate here, but I'd like to know if anyone has any
>>> reactions on this subject.
>>>
>>> Cory
>>>
>>> ps. Props to the 4 presenters (Hicks, Bernstein, Grimshaw, and
>>> Haskins) at the first ever all-Cage session at the American
>>> Musicological Society conference last Friday. Great stuff guys!
>>>
>>> --
>>> cory mathews
>>> PhD candidate, musicology
>>> university of california, santa barbara
>>> cmathews@umail.ucsb.edu
>>> http://ucsbmusicgrads.net
>>>
>>> Music gives us alternative imaginative geographies for the places we
>>> inhabit.
>>> Simon Critchley
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> To join or leave the Silence mailing list, please go to
>>> https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/silence.
>>> You can find searchable list archives at
>>> http://list.mail.virginia.edu/pipermail/silence/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 06:59:44 -0500
>> From: Zac Bond <zacwbond@vt.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [silence] Brophy & Cage
>> Cc: silence@list.mail.virginia.edu
>> Message-ID: <454F23B0.5030804@vt.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>>
>> I have not read the aricle, though if I can find the magazine I will
>> make a point of buying it to comment further. However, the
>> snippiet of
>> the article at:
>>
>> http://www.philipbrophy.com/projects/rstff/WireEphiphany_M.html
>>
>> and the rest of the site does not inspire me. One of the things I
>> enjoyed about reading Cage's "Silence" was that even as a non-
>> musician,
>> non-artist, it was highly comprehensible, even the less-interesting
>> discussions of dance. Brophy, however, provides gems such as the
>> following on post-90's pop music:
>>
>> "Evaporated Music = Pop as plastic surgery - the effect is not to
>> drag,
>> mime, portray or mimic the styled-mannequinn of Pop audiovision,
>> but to
>> become it from within via the operations of granular trans-
>> audiovision."
>>
>> As for being critical, I think in my entirely nonprofessional
>> discussions of Cage I have been--for example, I find his position on
>> recorded music massively flawed, and I basically dismiss his political
>> and social opinions. More specific to his music, I am not
>> enthusiastic
>> about some of the complex rhythmic structures he uses in the earlier
>> works, because I find that I cannot hear them; I would have no idea of
>> the small-scale, large-scale structural similarities if they were not
>> pointed out to me by someone who has seen the score.
>>
>> One of the things I like about later Cage is the freedom he grants
>> to me
>> as a listener, by writing music with the expressed purpose of
>> non-expression (pun intended). I don't think that Cage would want
>> me to
>> hear his music as he hears it, and would be fine with me projecting my
>> own emotions/references/whatever into the music. I think there is a
>> flaw in how Cage is presented sometimes, as if people must learn
>> "how to
>> listen to Cage," whereas I think they are better off just simply
>> listening.
>>
>> -Zac
>>
>> Cory P. Mathews wrote:
>>> Hello Silencers,
>>>
>>> Has anyone seen Philip Brophy's little essay on page 106 of the
>>> November 2006 issue of The Wire (#273)? I'm interested in the
>>> group's
>>> reactions.
>>>
>>> More importantly, though, I wonder if this may signal the end of
>>> defending Cage. Or, might this essay be a call for more critical
>>> reactions to Cage and his musical/philosophic/aesthetic legacy? (Of
>>> course, this is not the first critique of Cage--I'm thinking of
>>> Douglas Kahn's Noise, Water, Meat.) Could it be that the anxiety of
>>> Cage's influence (in Bloomian terms) is hindering the aesthetic shift
>>> that will usher in the next big thing in music's history? At this
>>> historical juncture, might it become necessary for both composers and
>>> scholars to challenge (read: "think more critically about") Cage in
>>> order to incite change? (Not that change is desired, better, or even
>>> "necessary.") I have to admit, that it was refreshing to read
>>> Brophy's viewpoint, just because so much writing and scholarship
>>> about
>>> Cage falls under the "apologist" category in my mind. Not, to start a
>>> big nasty debate here, but I'd like to know if anyone has any
>>> reactions on this subject.
>>>
>>> Cory
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 04:25:26 -0800
>> From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
>> Subject: Re: [silence] Brophy & Cage
>> To: Zac Bond <zacwbond@vt.edu>
>> Cc: silence@list.mail.virginia.edu
>> Message-ID: <454F29B6.6030108@metatronpress.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Zac Bond wrote:
>>> As for being critical, I think in my entirely nonprofessional
>>> discussions of Cage I have been--for example, I find his position on
>>> recorded music massively flawed, and I basically dismiss his
>>> political
>>> and social opinions. More specific to his music, I am not
>>> enthusiastic
>>> about some of the complex rhythmic structures he uses in the earlier
>>> works, because I find that I cannot hear them; I would have no
>>> idea of
>>> the small-scale, large-scale structural similarities if they were not
>>> pointed out to me by someone who has seen the score.
>>>
>> James Pritchett points out in his indispensable book that Cage's
>> career
>> is the history of a person changing his mind. The later Cage might
>> have
>> agreed with you about the earlier Cage. If I recall correctly, he
>> referred to some of his rhythmic structures in a late interview as
>> "boring as hell."
>>
>> His political views changed over time as well, through a naive Maoism
>> toward his later anarchism (naive as that may, also, have been).
>>
>> By the way, I've recently read the very good book "*CageTalk:*
>> *Dialogues with and about John Cage "*
>> *edited by Peter Dickinson *
>> http://www.boydell.co.uk/www.urpress.com/80462375.HTM
>>
>> Many of the interviews there are quite critical of aspects of Cage's
>> work, and give an intriguing counterpoint to much of what we have read
>> until now.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 07:01:28 -0700
>> From: "Christopher L Shultis" <cshultis@unm.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [silence] Brophy & Cage
>> To: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>,Zac Bond <zacwbond@vt.edu>
>> Cc: silence@list.mail.virginia.edu
>> Message-ID: <web-10824867@sabik.unm.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
>>
>> I would also point to Norman O. Brown's criticism of Cage,
>> first presented at Wesleyan in 1988, and later published
>> in the Bucknell review. That's out of print but in many
>> libraries. Titled simply "John Cage" it has also recently
>> been republished in Aufgabe # 5 (ISBN: 0-9723331-8-5)
>> with an introduction by Richard K. Winslow, who as many of
>> you know, taught at Wesleyan and had many contacts with
>> both Cage and Brown. It also includes responses by poets
>> including Joan Retallack who also has a long history of
>> excellent work on/with Cage. The best thing about Brown's
>> criticism in my opinion is that it takes Cage seriously
>> and treats his work with the kind of respect that then
>> MERITS good criticism. I haven't seen the Brophy piece (so
>> thanks for bringing it to our attention!) but for me the
>> key issue of good criticism is being deeply informed about
>> what one criticizes. This is my complaint with much of the
>> early criticism of Cage (journalistic typically and rarely
>> well-informed) and also with the occasional criticism one
>> finds more recently, like the previously mentioned book by
>> Kahn as well as others that I can't think of just off the
>> top of my head. I will however mention that of the two
>> critiques heard at the Cage Mills conference in 1995 by
>> Moira Roth (talking about Pauline Oliveros) and George
>> Lewis (Cage and jazz), the latter I've read in published
>> version and think it definitely merits further research
>> and discussion. Good criticism in other words.
>>
>> But indeed there is alot of work to do regarding Cage's
>> work as meriting criticism. I think if one studies a
>> subject deeply, next thing you know there is something to
>> criticize. A sign of its importance is its ability to
>> merit that time and effort. And that's why once again I
>> like Brown. He spent ALOT of time thinking about and
>> studying Cage--and not necessarily because of affinities
>> either. Instead he was intrigued by their differences and
>> his serious desire to pursue what that meant. Good stuff.
>>
>> chris shultis
>>
>> On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 04:25:26 -0800
>> Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com> wrote:
>>> Zac Bond wrote:
>>>> As for being critical, I think in my entirely
>>>> nonprofessional
>>>> discussions of Cage I have been--for example, I find his
>>>> position on
>>>> recorded music massively flawed, and I basically dismiss
>>>> his political
>>>> and social opinions. More specific to his music, I am
>>>> not enthusiastic
>>>> about some of the complex rhythmic structures he uses in
>>>> the earlier
>>>> works, because I find that I cannot hear them; I would
>>>> have no idea of
>>>> the small-scale, large-scale structural similarities if
>>>> they were not
>>>> pointed out to me by someone who has seen the score.
>>>>
>>> James Pritchett points out in his indispensable book
>>> that Cage's career
>>> is the history of a person changing his mind. The later
>>> Cage might have
>>> agreed with you about the earlier Cage. If I recall
>>> correctly, he
>>> referred to some of his rhythmic structures in a late
>>> interview as
>>> "boring as hell."
>>>
>>> His political views changed over time as well, through a
>>> naive Maoism
>>> toward his later anarchism (naive as that may, also,
>>> have been).
>>>
>>> By the way, I've recently read the very good book
>>> "*CageTalk:*
>>> *Dialogues with and about John Cage "*
>>> *edited by Peter Dickinson *
>>> http://www.boydell.co.uk/www.urpress.com/80462375.HTM
>>>
>>> Many of the interviews there are quite critical of
>>> aspects of Cage's
>>> work, and give an intriguing counterpoint to much of
>>> what we have read
>>> until now.
>>>
>>> --
>>> To join or leave the Silence mailing list, please go to
>>> https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/silence.
>>> You can find searchable list archives at
>>> http://list.mail.virginia.edu/pipermail/silence/
>>
>>
>>
>> End of silence Digest, Vol 54, Issue 3
>> **************************************
>
>
> --
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