[silence] Petr Kotik's Umbilical Cord

[Joseph Zitt]

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Glenn Freeman <glenn@ogreogress.com> wrote:
> Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
>> In this discussion, one might compare the Written Law to Cage's
>> written scores, and the Oral Law to the information and experience
>> gained, though not necessarily documented yet, by people such as Petr
>> and others on this list who did get to work with him.
>>
>> For example, my own sole interaction with Cage involved his saying a
>> single word, but it cleared up a question for me: when, after one of
>> his last performances in New York, I asked him whether the pitches
>> that he used in his performance of a section of Empty Words were
>> following a system or improvised, he said "Improvised." (And, come to
>> think of it, I don't think I'd ever logged that here.)
>
> So now you've logged it, great! Would Cage's answer have mattered or not if
> you simply took the time to closely study the score and decide for yourself?

As I've mentioned in an earlier message, I have indeed closely studied
the score. (Does the question assume that I have not? If so, on what
basis?) Since I understand that relevant information exists that is
not encoded in the score, I did the needed research by asking the
question.

>
>>> In terms of history, power, greed, fiction and 'oral traditions' I
>>> suggest a film called "Joe Gould's Secret (2000)".
>>> For Petr Kotik to suggest that because we did not know Cage personally
>>> we are somehow different is true. But to also suggest Cage was unable
>>> to write his ideas down on paper for future performers (with no prior
>>> knowledge of any 'oral tradition') to ponder and come to their own
>>> equally valid conclusions and interpretations is untrue. I doubt Cage
>>> would much enjoy a single approach to his work passed down in such a
>>> fanatical, even religious, fashion ... and with references to an 'oral
>>> tradition'.
>>
>> Such doubt is understandable. But I wonder how it relates to Cage's
>> involvement in Zen Buddhism, which, as I understand it, has a
>> tradition of oral transmission of teachings.
>
> What doubt are you referring to? One purpose of the above mentioned
> tradition is to provide a method to see it for what it is, over time.

The doubt mentioned in the sentence to which I replied, of course.

>
>>> I hope someday to hear the Berlin Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony, etc.
>>> perform 103, 108 or Twenty-Six, Twenty-Eight and Twenty-Nine [Eighty-
>>> Three], etc., without a conductor AND/THUS as written. It would be
>>> another equally valid approach, in addition to Kotik's 103.
>>> Understand? Recordings are a different matter.
>>
>> On this we differ.
>
> Perhaps we do. No problem.
>
>>> To repeat the only commentary in the first email:
>>> "I was born the year Kotik met Cage. According to Kotik it is unlikely
>>> I will find an approach to Cage's music and he is correct. It is
>>> highly unlikely we will ever find ONE (an) approach to Cage's music."
>>
>> Yes. Which would not be the case were perfect information encoded in the
>> scores.
>
> I see it exactly the opposite. We will never find one approach precisely
> because we have everything we need (including the fog if you choose to see
> fog) in the scores themselves. Such clearly written notes can not acquire a
> static or fixed character. The 'perfection' you describe is actually the
> music's ability to change its very nature over time, with different
> performers and styles, etc. "earthquake-proof" in Cage's own words.
> Therefore, such works can survive and adapt over very long periods of time
> (avoiding the marketing term 'classical' here).
>
> Such information (you labelled it 'perfect') allows the very interpretations
> you view as 'imperfect' to occur over time ... to not rely on an oral
> tradition which I've suggested can never be accurate and in many cases may
> actually cause the premature death or corruption of a tradition.

There is a wide spectrum between assuming that the study of the
composer's practice is essential to the work (as I understand Petr's
position) and assuming that it is irrelevant (as I understand
Glenn's). Yes, the oral tradition may not be perfectly transmitted,
but there's usually still at least one baby there in the bathwater.

What is this "premature death or corruption of a tradition"? Could you
provide an example?

>
> Glenn Freeman
> OgreOgress productions
> http://ogreogress.com
>