[silence] Petr Kotik's Umbilical Cord

[Petr Kotik]

To all who are reading this:
Say what you say, do what you please.
Only the results matter.
PK
(and If you think that I am elitist, then you are right. There is no
equality in the arts. Someone performs like Horowitz, someone performs like
Joe Schmuck)


On 12/12/08 3:59 PM, "Bill Trigg" <billtrigg@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have always found John's instructions to be clear enough for anyone
> willing to give them sufficient thought to "decipher".  From the
> interaction I had with him, I think John would have been displeased by
> the notion that only the "enlightened ones" could give "authoritative"
> performances of his music.  I found John to be meticulous about the
> parameters that he specified in his scores.  Other parameters are
> unspecified, left up to the performer.  He was less concerned about
> those.  "Yes, that's nice." was a common response.  I think the
> notions of "correct" vs. "incorrect" would not be issues for him
> unless the instructions were completely disregarded.  As Petr states,
> few if any orchestras are able to interpret Cage's music, because it
> requires thoughtful preparation more than the practicing of licks.
> I'd love to be part of an Orpheus style orchestra of musicians
> familiar with the style and dedicated enough to thoughtfully prepare,
> discuss, and rehearse this music.  We need to refrain from being
> elitist and to accept thoughtful interpretations of Cage's music the
> same way we do with Bach + Beethoven.  I know he would have.
> 
> Bill Trigg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/12/08, Joseph Zitt <jzitt@josephzitt.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Glenn Freeman <glenn@ogreogress.com> wrote:
>>> Joseph Zitt wrote:
>>> 
>>>> In this discussion, one might compare the Written Law to Cage's
>>>> written scores, and the Oral Law to the information and experience
>>>> gained, though not necessarily documented yet, by people such as Petr
>>>> and others on this list who did get to work with him.
>>>> 
>>>> For example, my own sole interaction with Cage involved his saying a
>>>> single word, but it cleared up a question for me: when, after one of
>>>> his last performances in New York, I asked him whether the pitches
>>>> that he used in his performance of a section of Empty Words were
>>>> following a system or improvised, he said "Improvised." (And, come to
>>>> think of it, I don't think I'd ever logged that here.)
>>> 
>>> So now you've logged it, great! Would Cage's answer have mattered or not
>>> if
>>> you simply took the time to closely study the score and decide for
>>> yourself?
>> 
>> As I've mentioned in an earlier message, I have indeed closely studied
>> the score. (Does the question assume that I have not? If so, on what
>> basis?) Since I understand that relevant information exists that is
>> not encoded in the score, I did the needed research by asking the
>> question.
>> 
>>> 
>>>>> In terms of history, power, greed, fiction and 'oral traditions' I
>>>>> suggest a film called "Joe Gould's Secret (2000)".
>>>>> For Petr Kotik to suggest that because we did not know Cage personally
>>>>> we are somehow different is true. But to also suggest Cage was unable
>>>>> to write his ideas down on paper for future performers (with no prior
>>>>> knowledge of any 'oral tradition') to ponder and come to their own
>>>>> equally valid conclusions and interpretations is untrue. I doubt Cage
>>>>> would much enjoy a single approach to his work passed down in such a
>>>>> fanatical, even religious, fashion ... and with references to an 'oral
>>>>> tradition'.
>>>> 
>>>> Such doubt is understandable. But I wonder how it relates to Cage's
>>>> involvement in Zen Buddhism, which, as I understand it, has a
>>>> tradition of oral transmission of teachings.
>>> 
>>> What doubt are you referring to? One purpose of the above mentioned
>>> tradition is to provide a method to see it for what it is, over time.
>> 
>> The doubt mentioned in the sentence to which I replied, of course.
>> 
>>> 
>>>>> I hope someday to hear the Berlin Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony, etc.
>>>>> perform 103, 108 or Twenty-Six, Twenty-Eight and Twenty-Nine [Eighty-
>>>>> Three], etc., without a conductor AND/THUS as written. It would be
>>>>> another equally valid approach, in addition to Kotik's 103.
>>>>> Understand? Recordings are a different matter.
>>>> 
>>>> On this we differ.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps we do. No problem.
>>> 
>>>>> To repeat the only commentary in the first email:
>>>>> "I was born the year Kotik met Cage. According to Kotik it is unlikely
>>>>> I will find an approach to Cage's music and he is correct. It is
>>>>> highly unlikely we will ever find ONE (an) approach to Cage's music."
>>>> 
>>>> Yes. Which would not be the case were perfect information encoded in the
>>>> scores.
>>> 
>>> I see it exactly the opposite. We will never find one approach precisely
>>> because we have everything we need (including the fog if you choose to see
>>> fog) in the scores themselves. Such clearly written notes can not acquire
>>> a
>>> static or fixed character. The 'perfection' you describe is actually the
>>> music's ability to change its very nature over time, with different
>>> performers and styles, etc. "earthquake-proof" in Cage's own words.
>>> Therefore, such works can survive and adapt over very long periods of time
>>> (avoiding the marketing term 'classical' here).
>>> 
>>> Such information (you labelled it 'perfect') allows the very
>>> interpretations
>>> you view as 'imperfect' to occur over time ... to not rely on an oral
>>> tradition which I've suggested can never be accurate and in many cases may
>>> actually cause the premature death or corruption of a tradition.
>> 
>> There is a wide spectrum between assuming that the study of the
>> composer's practice is essential to the work (as I understand Petr's
>> position) and assuming that it is irrelevant (as I understand
>> Glenn's). Yes, the oral tradition may not be perfectly transmitted,
>> but there's usually still at least one baby there in the bathwater.
>> 
>> What is this "premature death or corruption of a tradition"? Could you
>> provide an example?
>> 
>>> 
>>> Glenn Freeman
>>> OgreOgress productions
>>> http://ogreogress.com
>>> 
>> 
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