[silence] Fwd: Petr Kotik's Umbilical Cord

[Joseph Zitt]

In the contexts in which I've seen it used, "oral tradition" tends not
to be strictly limited to what is transmitted orally in a literal
sense, but is contrasted with the "written tradition," consisting of
all that which is not written down.

One worrisome thought: if, as you appear to suggest, only those who
have had direct experience with a composer might understand his music,
is appropriate performance possible in a later generation? Will any of
today's music be able to be performed 100 years from now? (Well,
perhaps that of Elliott Carter, since all signs are that he will keep
on composing until the sun burns out.)

On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 3:30 PM, Petr Kotik <pksem@semensemble.org> wrote:
> Dear Joseph Zitt,
> It seem to me that do not understand my point at all.
> There is no such thing as "oral tradition" in music.
> What I am referring is a direct experience, musicians with musicians, making
> music together and all that belongs to it. Just a fragment of it is being
> revealed orally (unless one is a singer).
>
> Your studies of Cage should make you understand that most of) his
> instructions were written either directly for David Tudor, or with Tudor in
> his mind. I have been in a situation where musicians would refer to some his
> written suggestions (which are part of his instructions) in which he replied
> "don't pay attention to it" - this is for someone on another level - meaning
> - if you devote some 20 years to this performance practice (as David did),
> you could allow yourself such freedom.
>
> There are countless other instance where one learned things not recorded
> anywhere else. Forget your "fundamentalism" and respect those few of us who
> have this kind of a background. Of course, you don't have to accept what we
> say, but you better have a good reason for it.
> PK
>
> On 12/12/08 3:06 PM, "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@metatronpress.com> wrote:
>
> Indeed, this does strike me as a clash between fundamentalisms, one of
> which insists that the oral tradition is irrelevant, the other of
> which insists that it is essential.
>
> In fact, the spectre of a "school" of Cage is raised by those who
> insist that only those who worked directly with him can maintain and
> transmit the chain of information about the performance of his scores
> (which are the analogy here to laws).
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/12/08 3:06 PM, "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@metatronpress.com> wrote:
>
>> Indeed, this does strike me as a clash between fundamentalisms, one of
>> which insists that the oral tradition is irrelevant, the other of
>> which insists that it is essential.
>>
>> In fact, the spectre of a "school" of Cage is raised by those who
>> insist that only those who worked directly with him can maintain and
>> transmit the chain of information about the performance of his scores
>> (which are the analogy here to laws).
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Petr Kotik <pksem@semensemble.org> wrote:
>>> Gentlemen,
>>>
>>> I have not read all the comments, just skipped through them.
>>>
>>> The discussion reminds me of Christian fundamentalists, who read the bible
>>> as an Operating Manual. Did Cage wrote some ³laws?² Very soon, we might
>>> learn that he started a ³school.²
>>>
>>> Musical practice is based on direct experiential knowledge, passed from one
>>> generation to the next. Because it is not possible to grasp the musical
>>> substance from either the notation, or the written word and that goes for
>>> Cage, Mozart or Wagner. When this chain, which goes directly to the
>>> composer, is interrupted, the interpretation is problematic ­ as it is in
>>> the case of early music, not to mention music before Gregorian Chant.
>>>
>>> Apropos 103: the piece does not have a score, hence it could not be
>>> conducted. One has to decide then, whether one sets in the front of the
>>> orchestra a clock, or a ³human clock² (the one Cage invented in the 1950s).
>>> I have not encountered an orchestra, which has the training and experience
>>> to make sense out of Cages notation (and music for that matter). This is the
>>> reason for the need to put a human being in front of the orchestra
>>> musicians, to help them, technically and musically, navigate the piece.
>>>
>>> Petr Kotik
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/12/08 9:19 AM, "Herb Levy" <herb@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Glenn Freeman wrote:
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Glenn Freeman <glenn@ogreogress.com>
>>>>>> Date: December 12, 2008 2:26:45pm GMT+01:00
>>>>>> To: "Joseph Zitt" <jzitt@josephzitt.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [silence] Petr Kotik's Umbilical Cord
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joseph Zitt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In this discussion, one might compare the Written Law to Cage's
>>>>>>> written scores, and the Oral Law to the information and experience
>>>>>>> gained, though not necessarily documented yet, by people such as Petr
>>>>>>> and others on this list who did get to work with him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, my own sole interaction with Cage involved his saying a
>>>>>>> single word, but it cleared up a question for me: when, after one of
>>>>>>> his last performances in New York, I asked him whether the pitches
>>>>>>> that he used in his performance of a section of Empty Words were
>>>>>>> following a system or improvised, he said "Improvised." (And, come to
>>>>>>> think of it, I don't think I'd ever logged that here.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> So now you've logged it, great! Would Cage's answer have mattered or
>>>>>> not if you simply took the time to closely study the score and
>>>>>> decide for yourself?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Empty Words is a text derived from Thoreau's Journal's by deleting
>>>> sentences, phrases, words and letters. The complete work was published
>>>> in the mid-70s in Wesleyan University Press book of the same name,
>>>> sections of it appeared in various literary magazines prior to that.
>>>>
>>>> The only published versions of the work and/or excerpts I've seen
>>>> include some notes about how the text was drawn from Thoreau's writings.
>>>> This is consistent with how he published other performance texts
>>>> (Writing through Finnegans Wake, Themes and Variation, Composition in
>>>> Retrospect, etc). Generally these works have been presented as
>>>> free-standing texts or with introductory matter that describes in detail
>>>> how the texts were selected from the original source materials. Except
>>>> for passing references to time length and/or relative speed of delivery
>>>> of the texts, I don't recall reading any detailed description of how
>>>> someone else might perform these works.
>>>>
>>>> What seems most interesting to me about Cage saying that his performance
>>>> of Empty Words was improvised is that each of the two times I heard him
>>>> read portions of the work, he intoned it in a sort of ornamented melody
>>>> with what seemed to be a strong modal focus.
>>>>
>>>> Bests,
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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