[silence] silence Digest, Vol 79, Issue 12

[Joseph Zitt]

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 7:12 AM, Glenn Freeman <glenn@ogreogress.com> wrote:
> Brian,
>
> I simply disagree with your's and Petrs view and distrust of musicians
> and people. It is precisely this negative attitude/tradition that
> causes things to remain as they are.

Is it they who have the negative view of musicians and people? After
all, it is they who respect the experience and knowledge of others,
trusting more than what might be assumed from reading a score in a
vacuum.

> George Bush is gone.

Yes -- and now we have a President-elect who knows how to learn from
history and the experience of others!

> Of course, Cage had problems with this attitude as well but chose to
> handle things differently in terms of his art, his compositions. I am
> uncertain you and Petr really understand what Cage accomplished in
> these last works ... the effect they'll have over time. Perhaps even
> Cage did not understand.

And who do you believe has a better understanding? And, seeing as all
are working from the same scores, what experience might have led
another to "really understand" the music?

> Am aware of everything you've written below, but for me it does not
> matter in terms of the music itself. Call me a naive optimist, but the
> ignorance you want to see in my attitude can be both bliss and the
> cause of bliss. Perhaps it was better I never met Cage and simply
> understand his art.
>
> I believe your story of "hopeless" in regard to the concerto recording
> sheds light on what I am trying to suggest. Cage was never satisfied
> with hopeless. He simply changed in order to make things work.
>
> There is no need for Cage to be here. We have the music. I disagree
> with your ideas of "much more".
>
> Glenn
>
> Brian Barndt wrote:
>
>
>> Having worked with Cage directly on a number of recordings over 9
>> years,
>> in addition to sitting with him at a couple of festivals of his
>> music, I
>> must say that the "oral" tradition of Cage is important. The scores
>> tell
>> you just so much. Hearing Cage interact with the performers and
>> shedding
>> additional insight tells you much more. Yes, certain performers (eg
>> Tudor) would be given carte blanche with the score -- they already
>> worked directly with Cage and knew his thinking and preferences. They
>> proved themselves and he trusted them. Cage would be very helpful to
>> musicians that were trying to execute his scores well. He would have
>> little comment (and polite impatience) with musicians that really were
>> hopeless or not serious. I think in his later years he resigned
>> himself
>> to the fact that his music would sometimes be performed poorly and
>> there
>> was no need to try to change a hopeless situation. And, by the way,
>> "hopeless" is a verbatim quote: once at a live performance of his
>> "Concerto for Prepared Piano" which Mode was recording, he turned to
>> me
>> to say that "this is hopeless". So that was the end of that
>> recording --
>> and this is of a written out "early" work!
>>
>> As for major orchestras performing his works well: yes, the calibre of
>> musicianship in younger musicians never ceases to amaze me. And
>> perhaps
>> they may (or likely may not) change the orchestra's attitude toward
>> works that are not finite in on the page. But, for now, orchestras are
>> not ready to just perform Cage's late scores, nor are they ready for
>> something like "Atlas Eclipticalis". Most of the orchestra don't
>> want to
>> think about the score and make choices. They want to play their gig,
>> collect their check and go home. It's a job. The majority won't take
>> such scores seriously and the result will be an approximation at best.
>> Chamber works are a different matter: you can assemble a group of
>> musicians who are keen to interpret these works seriously and
>> correctly.
>> Orchestras are a subset of "society". Some members are inquisitive and
>> curious, others would simply prefer to have a beer with someone like
>> George Bush.
>>
>> Through anarchy, Cage hoped to see a new and better society. His late
>> works are perhaps a roadmap toward that effect. Let's face it, society
>> is not ready for anarchy yet -- today it practically has achieved
>> anarchy by the collapse of worldwide governmental and financial
>> systems.
>> Does the world's response to such "chaos" indicate that it is ready
>> for
>> anarchy and for everyone (orchestras included) to be responsible for
>> themselves and their actions? I wish Cage were here today so I could
>> ask
>> him his opinions of the world's current condition. And please,
>> listen to
>> or read his works "Overpopulation and Art" (on mode 130) or "Lecture
>> on
>> the Weather"-- Cage's comments and insight from decades ago are wholly
>> relevant today. Pure perceptive genius, these texts could have been
>> written today.
>>
>> Regarding the two performances of "103" on the Mode DVD (mode 174): to
>> my knowledge, neither was actually conducted. I was not at the
>> recording
>> sessions. The orchestras were thoroughly prepared by the conductors
>> involved prior to the performance.
>>
>> Brian Brandt
>> www.moderecords.com
>>
>>
>> Glenn Freeman wrote:
>>>>>> To perform the work? Yes. To perform the work well is another
>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>
>>>>> OK, and what authority figure will decide what is well and what is
>>>>> not?
>>>>>
>>>> Authority figure?
>>>>
>>>
>>> who decides what is "well"?
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I never said irrelevant, I said not required.
>>>>>
>>>> So then you agree that the statements outside the score can have a
>>>> beneficial effect on performance. How would you revise your previous
>>>> remarks to make them consistent with this?
>>>>
>>>
>>> no need to revise.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Have you heard of the stories of the attempts by major orchestras to
>>>> perform Cage's works in his presence during his lifetime? You might
>>>> find them enlightening.
>>>>
>>>
>>> feel free to provide an oral history of such attempts if you like,
>>> but
>>> the past is gone.
>>>
>>> cage has been dead since 1992. his number pieces for orchestra were
>>> all written within 5 years of his death. that is, 6 major orchestral
>>> works [not including various re-combinations] i would describe as
>>> cage's 6 late symphonies. they all remain unperformed by the major
>>> orchestras of our day.
>>>
>>> today's orchestras, quite a bit different than the orchestras of the
>>> 1960s and 70s (aside from the conductor issue), would encounter no
>>> problems performing these symphonies. i soon hope to hear the major
>>> orchestras of the world performing Cage's 6 final symphonies on a
>>> regular basis.
>>>
>>> Glenn Freeman
>>> OgreOgress productions
>>> http://ogreogress.com
>
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