[silence] Re Cage's arrangement of Feldman's "Ixion"

Mon Feb 23 15:16:37 EST 2009

Here are two quotes about the above. Can anyone help with clarification? Which version is closer to the truth? Can anyone tell me which version is on the BMG recording, which I've never seen?
1.  from Mats Persson's essay in the recording of Feldman's 2-piano music on Alice records. "Feldman abandoned  graph notation for a while though he did occasionally return to it in the late 50s and during the 1960s, often when writing for larger chamber orchestras and orchestras. The first of these was Ixion for ten instruments, which was composed in August 1958 together with Merce Cunningham's choreography Summerspace......John Cage worked out a re-modified version of the tempo scheme for Ixion, perhaps because of the huge difficulties it imposed upon the musicians. Feldman himself arranged it foir two pianos without changing the tempo -an extremely virtuosic music."

2.  from Carolyn Brown's book "Chance and Circumstance", an account of her 20 years working with Cunningham, page 220. " Morton Feldman had been commissioned to write music for orchestra. Titled Ixion, it was one of Feldman's graph pieces..............The problem was, Morty either didn't know how to or didn't want to transribe his score for orchestra, so it was John who had to do it at the last moment............"
Both of these people seem to know what they're talking about - I'd strongly recommend both the CD and the book. So which is right, or more right? Does Cage's version still exist - is it perhaps the one used on the MBG recording? Is there anything about the work and its arrangements elsewhere in the literature?
Richard Leigh

--- On Mon, 23/2/09, silence-request@list.mail.virginia.edu <silence-request@list.mail.virginia.edu> wrote:

From: silence-request@list.mail.virginia.edu <silence-request@list.mail.virginia.edu>
Subject: silence Digest, Vol 81, Issue 23
To: silence@list.mail.virginia.edu
Date: Monday, 23 February, 2009, 5:04 PM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Korean unison in other of Cage's works (David Badagnani)
   2. Re: Korean unison in other of Cage's works (Brian Brandt)
   3. Etudes Australes and Etudes Boreales spelling (kkrka kr)
   4. Re: Etudes Australes and Etudes Boreales spelling (Thomas Moore)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:16:00 -0800 (PST)
From: David Badagnani <davidbadagnani@yahoo.com>
Subject: [silence] Korean unison in other of Cage's works
To: silence@list.mail.virginia.edu
Message-ID: <283708.87185.qm@web63402.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The South Korean-born komungo player/composer Jin Hi Kim, who interviewed many
contemporary composers for a Korean music magazine from about 1982 to 1988 after
immigrating to the U.S. in 1980, just recalled the following in this interesting
email to me (see below).? Can anyone share more information about "Etcetera
II/4 Orchestras"--is it recorded and is it indeed reminiscent of Korean
court music?? I knew, due to Cage's own performance notes, that
"Ryoanji" was inspired by the concept of "Korean unison"
(this concept, as earlier discussion on this list has shown, was probably passed
to Cage by Henry Cowell, who, it is believed, coined it to describe the
sometimes not-quite-together attacks in Korean ritual music, which is extremely
slow in tempo), but I didn't know about this work, "Etcetera II/4
Orchestras."

*******************

Jin Hi Kim wrote, on 22 February 2009:

"Long time ago you sent me information about John Cage's Korean
Unison.? What I remember was about this is that people were blogging if
there is any proof for this.
I interviewed John Cage few times for my writing for Eumak-Dong A Music
Magazine.?At
that time (1989?) He was working on a new piece for Tokyo premiere, and
he mentioned <Korean unison> as slow tempo court orchestration.He said he
was composing <Etcetera II/4 Orchestras> with the influence of Korean
unison.I meant to tell you about this, but sorry that it took so long.??Jin--
Jin Hi Kimwww.jinhikim.com

--
David Badagnani
Kent, Ohio
USA

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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:52:30 -0500
From: Brian Brandt <mode@moderecords.com>
Subject: Re: [silence] Korean unison in other of Cage's works
To: David Badagnani <davidbadagnani@yahoo.com>,
	silence@list.mail.virginia.edu
Message-ID: <49A1D72E.2030007@moderecords.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear David

"Etcetera I/4 Orchestras" was recorded on Mode 86:
http://www.moderecords.com/catalog/086cage.html
Unfortunately this title is out of stock at the moment because we are 
out of the printed matter (books and inlays). Reprinting the books is 
the most expensive aspect of repressing a CD or DVD, and some titles 
suffer this fate for a while due to cash flow. However, you should be 
able to find it on iTunes or some other service where the Mode catalog 
is available as a download.

Regards
Brian Brandt

David Badagnani wrote:
> The South Korean-born komungo player/composer Jin Hi Kim, who 
> interviewed many contemporary composers for a Korean music magazine 
> from about 1982 to 1988 after immigrating to the U.S. in 1980, just 
> recalled the following in this interesting email to me (see below).  
> Can anyone share more information about "Etcetera II/4
Orchestras"--is 
> it recorded and is it indeed reminiscent of Korean court music?  I 
> knew, due to Cage's own performance notes, that "Ryoanji"
was inspired 
> by the concept of "Korean unison" (this concept, as earlier
discussion 
> on this list has shown, was probably passed to Cage by Henry Cowell, 
> who, it is believed, coined it to describe the sometimes 
> not-quite-together attacks in Korean ritual music, which is extremely 
> slow in tempo), but I didn't know about this work, "Etcetera II/4

> Orchestras."
>
> *******************
>
> Jin Hi Kim wrote, on 22 February 2009:
>
> "Long time ago you sent me information about John Cage's Korean 
> Unison.  What I remember was about this is that people were blogging 
> if there is any proof for this.
>
> I interviewed John Cage few times for my writing for Eumak-Dong A 
> Music Magazine. 
> At that time (1989?) He was working on a new piece for Tokyo premiere, 
> and he mentioned <Korean unison> as slow tempo court orchestration.
> He said he was composing <Etcetera II/4 Orchestras> with the
influence 
> of Korean unison.
> I meant to tell you about this, but sorry that it took so long.  
> Jin
> --
> Jin Hi Kim
> www.jinhikim.com <http://www.jinhikim.com>
>
> --
> David Badagnani
> Kent, Ohio
> USA
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> --
> To join or leave the Silence mailing list, please go to
https://list.mail.virginia.edu/mailman/listinfo/silence.
> You can find searchable list archives at
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:48:27 +0300
From: kkrka kr <haajg5@gmail.com>
Subject: [silence] Etudes Australes and Etudes Boreales spelling
To: silence@list.mail.virginia.edu
Message-ID:
	<abb8b5010902230148p7bbb2265x2591c59638b3e8c7@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Dear Silence members,

there is an ongoing debate at the English Wikipedia article about Etudes
Australes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etudes_Australes, the debate is at
the talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Etudes_Australes) as to
whether the title of this work and Etudes Boreales should be spelled with an
accent. Prof. Jerome Kohl, whom some of you will know, argues that
"e'tudes", "australes" and "bore'ales"
are all French words, and so the
correct titles are in French and should be spelled "E'tudes
australes" and
"E'tudes bore'ales". However, such spelling is only rarely
encountered, and
it seems that the accepted norm is to use no accents whatsoever, probably
because "australes" and "boreales" aren't French, but
derived from the Latin
titles of star charts Cage used, and the word "e'tude" is
frequently
encountered in English without the accent.

The question I'd like to ask is, has anyone ever heard Cage himself speak
about these works? As Mr. Kohl pointed out, I quote, "If the recordings of
Cage's interviews could be accessed, it would be a simple matter to
discover
whether he was thinking in French or in Latin, since the identically spelled
words are pronounced quite differently. French is something like
"oh-STRAHL", whereas Latin is more like "ow-STRAHL-ees"
(the final E is long
in Latin)." Perhaps some of you have spoken to Cage about these works, or
heard an interview in which he discussed them?

Any help would be greatly appreciated; replies are welcome both here and at
the talk page specified above.

- Jashiin
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:34:23 -0500
From: Thomas Moore <tmoore@umbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [silence] Etudes Australes and Etudes Boreales spelling
To: kkrka kr <haajg5@gmail.com>,	Silence
	<silence@list.mail.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <C5C801FF.39CE5%tmoore@umbc.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

On 2/23/09 4:48 AM, "kkrka kr" <haajg5@gmail.com> wrote:

> there is an ongoing debate at the English Wikipedia article about Etudes
> Australes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etudes_Australes, the debate is at
the
> talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Etudes_Australes) as to
whether
> the title of this work and Etudes Boreales should be spelled with an
accent.
> Prof. Jerome Kohl, whom some of you will know, argues that
"e'tudes",
> "australes" and "bore'ales" are all French words,
and so the correct titles
> are in French and should be spelled "E'tudes australes" and
"E'tudes
> bore'ales". However, such spelling is only rarely encountered,
and it seems
> that the accepted norm is to use no accents whatsoever, probably because
> "australes" and "boreales" aren't French, but
derived from the Latin titles of
> star charts Cage used, and the word "e'tude" is frequently
encountered in
> English without the accent.
> 
> The question I'd like to ask is, has anyone ever heard Cage himself
speak
> about these works? As Mr. Kohl pointed out, I quote, "If the
recordings of
> Cage's interviews could be accessed, it would be a simple matter to
discover
> whether he was thinking in French or in Latin, since the identically
spelled
> words are pronounced quite differently. French is something like
"oh-STRAHL",
> whereas Latin is more like "ow-STRAHL-ees" (the final E is long
in Latin)."
> Perhaps some of you have spoken to Cage about these works, or heard an
> interview in which he discussed them?

Jashiin,

John said Australes in three syllables, as far as I remember, and we talked
about the pieces a number of times. (Also my recollection with Boreales.)

The lengthy debate on the wikipedia page is quite amusing, but anyone who
had taken time to read John's introductory note for the Etudes Australes
would see that it begins, "Etudes Australes are thirty-two piano etudes
...
The Title comes from Atlas Australis, a book of star maps..." At no point
does the word "etude" have an accent (even when written in lower
case, "Each
etude has eight systems..."), and the word Australes is capitalized when
the
title of the pieces is written out in the text ("Etudes Australes").

Best,
Tom

-- 

Thomas Moore
Director, Arts & Culture
Institutional Advancement
UMBC
410-455-3370

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